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6/28-6/29 WWS

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6/28-6/29 WWS

Post by Chev on Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:14 pm

A few things bothering me here...
Attumen Kill
http://wowwebstats.com/l5w5vqzk3dxum?s=7518-10941

on the "heals" tab
Decurses:
Grazny 11
Ianil 1
Antoatashi 1
Dendro 0
(what if we didnt have Grazny?)
Anto's lack of decurses is ok, since he has to switch forms to decurse. Ianil and Dendro need to pickup the slack, ask Grazny how he does it...I will look for this next week.

More on the Attumen fight...
A staggering 46% overheal by Relina...while being outhealed 2 to 1 by Grazny, and all your doing is Flash of Light...
what's the deal with that? Is there just not enough healing to go around? I would expect Grazny to have the overheal with his HoTs.
To clarify, I have no problems with overheal whatsoever. It's a good safety net, especially on Prince phase 2, as long as you don't run out of mana.

I looked through all the WWS attempts and kills and only saw one instance where Relina outhealed Grazny, on the Illhoof kill...Despite Grazny outhealing Relina he consistently has lower overheal numbers.

Astral Flares
http://wowwebstats.com/l5w5vqzk3dxum?a=Gxf1300042c8000739#break

Everyone looks good, except for one player....Ianil!
Ianil Dealt 0 damage to the flares. BIG NO-NO! This is the key to the fight, ALL dps must switch targets to the Astral Flares
and eliminate them as soon as possible.

Hmm maybe I should look at the Demon Chains...
http://wowwebstats.com/fyeqpom2zd3do?s=1928-9225&a=Gxf1300043600001c3#break
Just our Warlock friend Nao didnt do so great on the Chains.

More to come perhaps.


Last edited by Chev on Thu Jul 03, 2008 8:21 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: 6/28-6/29 WWS

Post by Pulpable on Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:35 pm

Thanks for all these posts, Chev. The info can seem a little meaningless before it gets deciphered, and these updates will definitely improve our raiding.
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Re: 6/28-6/29 WWS

Post by Ianil on Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:57 pm

Chev wrote:
Anto's lack of decurses is ok, since he has to switch forms to decurse. Ianil and Dendro need to pickup the slack, ask Grazny how he does it...I will look for this next week.

Every time I went to decurse, Grazny had already done it, even with Healbot. So if anything, Grazny is just wicked fast. Wink

Everyone looks good, except for one player....Ianil!
Ianil Dealt 0 damage to the flares. BIG NO-NO! This is the key to the fight, ALL dps must switch targets to the Astral Flares
and eliminate them as soon as possible.

Again, the flares were taken down before I could deal any damage to them. Our melee DPS was really fast and in the six seconds or so it takes to rap off a fireball or get something out of cooldown, they were taken out. I wasn't just sitting on my butt, Chev.
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Re: 6/28-6/29 WWS

Post by Chev on Tue Jul 01, 2008 7:26 am

Well yes, try to figure out how to get faster on the decurses. Multiple ppl being wicked fast is better than one. =)

As for the astral flares, try using Searing Pain...if its taking you too long to switch targets make macros, /tar Astral Flare /tar Curator...you should be able to get in a searing pain or two which will only help us. If we decide to have anyone not dps the Astral Flares if would be the melee, they gotta run after them...but really they are so disruptive I don't care if there a loss of dps trying to kill them.

We don't have any trouble on these bosses but its for all the better in the future. Smile I love you

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Re: 6/28-6/29 WWS

Post by Chev on Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:50 am

http://wowwebstats.com/l5w5vqzk3dxum?s=22419-26144&a=x15ac746#break

Ms. Rackette, you need to work on that freeze trap. Daris did a good number on you, nearly 9000 damage, which can be avoided. He also did 6k on Grazny, and 13k on Pulpable. Now you can all see why I am weary of using CC...
http://wowwebstats.com/l5w5vqzk3dxum?s=22419-26144&a=xf130004da4000378#break
Your DPS on Drueger was also low as a result of concentrating on freezing Daris.
I do appreciate you dispelling the magic buffs though, good job!
http://wowwebstats.com/l5w5vqzk3dxum?s=22419-26144&bl=22419&fia=x15ac746

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Re: 6/28-6/29 WWS

Post by Chev on Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:18 am

09:19'26.110 Prince Malchezaar's Swing hits Chevalier for 1186 Physical (633 blocked)
35699 09:19'26.110 Prince Malchezaar's Swing hits Chevalier for 3247 Physical (633 blocked)
Two and a half seconds later...
09:19'28.813 Prince Malchezaar's Swing hits Chevalier for 4704 Physical (crushing)
35729 09:19'28.813 Prince Malchezaar's Swing misses Chevalier
35730 09:19'28.829 Prince Malchezaar's Swing hits Chevalier for 1349 Physical
35733 09:19'29.297 Chevalier is afflicted by Recently Bandaged
35734 09:19'29.625 Chevalier's Consecration dots Prince Malchezaar for 75 Holy
35735 09:19'29.641 Chevalier dies

Yep I got crushed, in that fast death...haven't really had to worry about crushes, since im overgeared, but I got a good wakeup call there when I forgot to refresh Holy Shield for just a few seconds...gotta make sure I keep that up next time and all the time. I did try to bandage myself at the end there lol
But then I hadn't gotten a heal for 10 seconds previous to my death:
http://wowwebstats.com/fyeqpom2zd3do?s=32129-36099&a=x2282456&dth=35735

Which did contribute, but I need to do my part and prevent crushing blows. 10,486 damage in 3.5 seconds. The crushing blow did me in. Definitely my fault, and the nature of this fight is also that Prince phase 2 really hits hard on any tank.
I recommend spamming heals on me during Phase 2 to prevent this. (Come on Relina, time to do what pallies do best =p )

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Re: 6/28-6/29 WWS

Post by Ianil on Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:24 pm

Chev wrote:Well yes, try to figure out how to get faster on the decurses. Multiple ppl being wicked fast is better than one. =)

As for the astral flares, try using Searing Pain...if its taking you too long to switch targets make macros, /tar Astral Flare /tar Curator...you should be able to get in a searing pain or two which will only help us. If we decide to have anyone not dps the Astral Flares if would be the melee, they gotta run after them...but really they are so disruptive I don't care if there a loss of dps trying to kill them.

We don't have any trouble on these bosses but its for all the better in the future. Smile I love you

Searing Pain? I don't have a spell like that. *scratches head*

I do have Healbot, which I use on the Decurses, but a lot of it too is having to do with groups. I was in group 2 and Graz was in group 1. Group 1 was getting more curses than group 2 and usually with the curses, folks can grab the people in their group more quickly than the other. That's probably why. By the time I get down the Healbot list to group 1 (because group 2 is listed before group 1 since that was the group I was in), group 1 was already decursed.
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Re: 6/28-6/29 WWS

Post by Chev on Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:50 pm

Ianil wrote:
Chev wrote:Well yes, try to figure out how to get faster on the decurses. Multiple ppl being wicked fast is better than one. =)

As for the astral flares, try using Searing Pain...if its taking you too long to switch targets make macros, /tar Astral Flare /tar Curator...you should be able to get in a searing pain or two which will only help us. If we decide to have anyone not dps the Astral Flares if would be the melee, they gotta run after them...but really they are so disruptive I don't care if there a loss of dps trying to kill them.

We don't have any trouble on these bosses but its for all the better in the future. Smile I love you

Searing Pain? I don't have a spell like that. *scratches head*

I do have Healbot, which I use on the Decurses, but a lot of it too is having to do with groups. I was in group 2 and Graz was in group 1. Group 1 was getting more curses than group 2 and usually with the curses, folks can grab the people in their group more quickly than the other. That's probably why. By the time I get down the Healbot list to group 1 (because group 2 is listed before group 1 since that was the group I was in), group 1 was already decursed.

I meant Scorch.

http://wowwebstats.com/l5w5vqzk3dxum?s=7518-10941&ab=29833

Ok so your right about Group 1 being hit more often with the curses...i'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this one.

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Re: 6/28-6/29 WWS

Post by Ianil on Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:23 pm

If you want more people to get hurt with the decurse, you might want to spread out the folks in groups 1 and 2 a bit more. I can't remember how many of us were in curse range versus out of it.
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Re: 6/28-6/29 WWS

Post by Chev on Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:22 pm

The groups are setup in such a way that players will receive max benefit. All the casters being in group 2 for the moonkin buff, and the melees bunched up together in group 1 for battle shout, lotp etc. Grazny being in grp 1 to give me and possible offtanks the Tree of Life Aura. So I don't think its practical to switch around grps for that, unless curses were really an issue. On the Prince fight, I borrowed Relina so I could do shadow resist aura and get a little bit more armor from her devotion aura...also I may switch in Kestria next time for the Imp Buff. Other than that the group setups are unchanged throughout.
On the other hand...I don't even think I was getting Devotion Aura the whole time from Relina on Prince...
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Dethecus&n=Relina
Surely Rel, you can spare a point from Anticipation Crying or Very sad

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Re: 6/28-6/29 WWS

Post by Rack on Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:43 am

Okay....having problems. WHERE are you seeing the part about the ice traps and how do I get there? I don't seem to be able to 'filter' stuff. I can get rid of all filters, so that I can see the entire Morose combat log, but when I select my name, and 'source', and then apply filter, nothing comes up. Does that mean I was drunk and passed out on one of the tables?

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Re: 6/28-6/29 WWS

Post by Chev on Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:14 am

I have trouble browsing through the Logs too, it does the same thing for me...
Here is Lord Daris's Log...
http://wowwebstats.com/l5w5vqzk3dxum?s=22419-26144&bl=22419&fia=xf130004da4000378

Looks like you had him trapped at the beginning (fight started earlier than the first time he smacked you...about 30 seconds) and inbetween 07:55'37.328 and 07:56'03.766...but then he went for Grazny and then Pulp picked him up...before I got him a bit later.
Ideally, he should be going from trap to trap causing no ruckus Smile

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Re: 6/28-6/29 WWS

Post by Chev on Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:28 am

here's your log for the fight...
http://wowwebstats.com/l5w5vqzk3dxum?s=22419-26144&bl=22419&fia=x15ac746
went to moroes death, clicked your name and browsed log
Looks like you had a trap that Daris didn't fall for Razz
07:56'05.875 Rackette creates Freezing Trap III using Freezing Trap
07:56'08.188 Lord Robin Daris's Whirlwind hits Grazny for 3235 Physical

Kinda piecing it together from Daris and your log

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Re: 6/28-6/29 WWS

Post by Rack on Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:47 am

I still can't figure it out.

Also, I'm not sure I understand the 'weary of using crowd control' comment. Did you state it that way because we cc ppl aren't doing it correctly, or because there is a way we can NOT have to use cc? I'm all for not having to rely on cc, if there is a way around it. I DO remember Darius going after Graz though. My second trap (or which ever one it was) was too far away from the previous one, and when the previous one broke, Darius ran towards me and the second trap, and just before he got there Graz threw off a big heal and Darius took a sharp left and headed over to smack Graz and I couldn't pull him back off.

Anyway, I need a quick tutorial on how to manipulate the wowstats information. Question

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Re: 6/28-6/29 WWS

Post by Chev on Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:16 am

http://monkey.niceboard.com/wws-f6/wow-web-stats-t156.htm
2nd post

Um, both it can be done w/o cc, but that particular enemy uses Mortal Strike...but id rather have it MS me then go for the healer.
You should position yourself between the enemy and Grazny next time. Healer threat is the only threat the enemy is getting and Relina's is reduced because she is a paladin so Grazny will be getting aggro before she does.

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Re: 6/28-6/29 WWS

Post by Rack on Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:48 am

Okay, after what feels like 12 hours, I've actually been able to look at some of the stats that you were talking about, Chev! *pats herself*

I'm not sure what to do about my traps. When I'm trapping something, the first thing I look to do is get the mob out of range of aoe and I try to put it some place 'out of the way' so it doesn't accidentally get targeted. I also try to keep it far enough away from the general fight area that there will be time for tanks or someone to react if the trap breaks ahead of time.

When I have to re-trap something, it can be a problem sometimes. I have a 30 sec cd on my traps and that is about 4 or 5 seconds less than the time a trap lasts (if it lasts for it's full time), so I don't have a lot of time to get the follow-up trap down, after the cd is up. If I've been feared, or had to run around a lot to avoid mobs, sometimes I find it difficult to get back to that previous trap and get the second one down before the previous breaks. I will, in the future, attempt to stay between the healers and a trapped mob, but I don't think I'm going to be very successful at that since everyone moves around, for different reasons, during a fight.

That said, it is usually only in high-movment fights, like Morose, where re-trapping sometimes becomes an issue, but I promise to do better! Smile

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Re: 6/28-6/29 WWS

Post by Chev on Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:50 am

I got this from http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=104502484
Perhaps it will help although it may be outdated.
(one of the forum threads on the first link in Class Sites)

Crowd Control

A well-played Hunter is the best pick for a group's crowd control needs.

Freezing Trap can be chained indefinitely on one mob of any type vulnerable to crowd control at all. Once you lay a trap down, it will not become active for two seconds and will last for one minute or until activated. You may not have two unactivated traps of any kind up at the same time; dropping the second will cause the first to vanish early.

However -- and this is vital -- activated traps don't count towards this restriction. The easiest way to take advantage of this is to drop the first trap, then wait for your trap cooldown to almost expire. Pull a mob into the first trap, activating it. Drop a second trap and pull a second mob into it. Two ice cubes up at once! A great aid on certain pulls.

Most of the time, chaining Freeze Trap on a single mob safely and for as long as it takes is preferred. Drop the first trap and wait a few seconds or nearly the whole trap cooldown, depending on how much safety is needed. Pull a mob into the first trap. Drop a second trap between the frozen mob and where you will be standing when the first trap breaks. Careful not to drop the second trap on top of the frozen mob or the new trap will overwrite the old trap. Why is this more 'safe'? Sometimes traps break early. Being ahead on cooldowns allows for an early break or two. The Trap Mastery talent greatly reduces, but does not eliminate early breaks.

Plan ahead each fight. You don't want your traps to be right in the middle of other mobs being killed; easier for other players to break it. Re-trapping the same mob will cause a slow shuffle of trap-move-trap-move. Make sure your shuffle path will be in line of sight with the group's kill zone and neither too close nor too far for your ranged attacks. After the pull, the only interruption to your DPS output should be one global cooldown for dropping each trap.

Communicate with your group. Ask the leader to use raid markers so you and everyone else knows which mob will be trapped. Because of cooldowns, traps are less forgiving than broken Polymorphs. A clearly marked mob directs blame at the breaker, not the Hunter. Ask for melee mobs to be marked in preference to casters; they are easier to coax into traps. Casters must be handled with line-of-sight pulling and Silencing Shot (if available) which cuts down on your DPS time and often means you'll take damage. And communicate on trap position vs. tanking position as needed.

Talents and gear can greatly impact trap timers:

60 sec - Unactivated trap time

20 sec - Base ice cube duration
26 sec - Duration with two points in Clever Traps

30 sec - Base trap dropping cooldown
26 sec - Cooldown with two-piece Beast Lord set
24 sec - Cooldown with three points in Resourcefulness
20 sec - Cooldown with both Resourcefulness and the set bonus

Readiness instantly resets trap cooldown.

With more forgiving timers, recovering from early breaks and multi-trapping (even beyond two) becomes easier. Yet no trap talent or bonus is strictly necessary for effective trapping. Waiting longer before the first activation, increasing distance between traps, and other crowd control techniques can close the gaps at the cost of time and effort.

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awesome stuff

Post by Ezmac on Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:01 pm

Love this chain...this is how we improve as a guild and as individuals in raid play. Great constructive criticism, no need to take anything personally...ok, enough rah rah.

My two cents--As a rogue, my dps in all fights but boss fights especially is totally predicated on me being able to stay locked on a target for a specific period of time to get enough time to cycle a good bleed effect, poison dot, and slice and dice. To do this, I need to be on target for as long as possible. If I'm off target my dps/per time efficiency goes way down and the boss gets to stay alive longer and screw with us.

Two fights make this a challenge for me:

1) Curator--not an issue, since we have him locked down--but there is always one astral flare that he pops just as he goes into his vulnerable stage, while I'm running after the flare my dps is not on the curator. Range dps can change targets much faster than me and other mele dps, and I would like to encourage ranged to focus on that one astral flare (the one just as he goes vulnerable) while I move to him so that I can get my bleed and dot cycle up before I have to move to flares again. To clarify, I will stay on all flares except for this last one where I'll expect ranged to attack that astral flare while I use the extra seconds to bring down the Curator more efficiently. This suggestion is just a slight tweak and may only affect Ianil since her cast time is so long for the fireball...but in the case of that last astral flare as he goes vulernable, make sure you get a fireball on that one Ianil. cool.

2) Prince...this is going to be very hard. Because I have to run in and out my dps will be down, generally. However, if you notice our best dps per time efficieny in our attempts (800Kish in about 4'20") is when I'm near the top of the charts. So...in an attempt to make this fight work best, my suggestion is this:

Chev, I know movement for you is very difficult due to casting constraints and keeping agro, but we need to figure out a way for you to completely change fields if we are boxed in with a group of spawners that triangulate mele dps off the fight (and healing/ranged dps jammed in). Is it possible to pop a bubble while you drop what you're doing and coordiante with others to drop their dps/heals and then you sprint across the field to an opposite corner? If we can do that, we can "reset" the spawners attack and we can buy another 2 minutes of dps at least and that should make the difference in a clean kill. If you can't bubble then dps should just lay off for a second while you sprint and graz/dend and ant all lay on some HOTs... ? Other ideas to help you "change fields" would be appreciated and I think would solve the key to this battle.


If movement is off the table, then I strongly suggest that you start the battle in the middle of the wall, rather than in the far corner. Starting even in the middle of the entire field would make things much easier. Starting in a corner simply handicaps the entire raid (vis a vis spawners) UNLESS you plan to start in a corner and THEN change fields. Let me know if this doesn't make sense, but generally picture the battle field from the aerial view and either start in the middle of the N/S axis against the far W wall or in the very middle of the field...OR, if you are going to start in the NW corner, then be prepared to change fields to the S side.
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RE: traps

Post by Ezmac on Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:11 pm

As a lay-man and non-hunter, it seems like the key is to place the trap at leat 15-20 seconds before you pull. Then, once the mob is in the trap, your CD is up and you lay another trap to then pull the mob who comes out of the first trap into the second trap. Rinse repeat, chain trap.
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Re: 6/28-6/29 WWS

Post by Chev on Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:16 pm

I try to tank him against a wall because Shadow Nova has a knockback. If im not against the wall it opens up the possibility of knocking me into an elemental, which is unneccessary additional damage. Although, I can just check if there is an elemental behind me. Needless to say, there is alot I need to work on for this fight. I cannot pop a bubble as that drops aggro and he isn't tauntable. If another situation like that happens ill warn the healers and run through the elementals...although on Phase 2 that may not be a good idea due to the heavy damage im taking already. I'm also open to crushes and the what not if I have my back to him, on the other hand if I run through backwards it'll take longer to go through the elementals but probably safer. I like the idea of all classes capable of healing to heal me while I make that transition. I mentioned earlier that we may change strategies and do it so that everyone stays in the hall but that strategy royally screws over Melee.

As for Curator...the only thing that's gonna kill us is the flares, so I don't really care about the speed we kill him at...your combo points aren't going to fall off him, so say the evocate is about to wear off...instead of rupturing perhaps an eviscerate would do the job here. But I see what you are saying with putting on the bleed effect at the beginning to maximize your dps, its a fast application...and the same can be said for all dots.

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learning and stuff

Post by Ezmac on Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:38 pm

Tank him in the middle of the W wall to start off then and not the NW corner. That will at least give us a 50% chance of moving away from spawners rather than a 25% in the corner.

As for curator...i'm not worried, we're doing fine with him, just a suggestion to make sure that ranged stays on that last flare.

One clarification--dots and bleeds are NOT fast to apply for a rogue, I need to get 5 shivs in to get max poison dot and I need to get 5 combo points in to get max rupture bleed. the difference between a 1-2cb and a 4-5cb is quite significant in either application.

rock on.
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Re: 6/28-6/29 WWS

Post by Rack on Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:58 pm

That was helpful, Chev. I didn't realize that I could have two active traps at the same time. However, I'm only spec'd down through "Trap Mastery", so I don't have much that reduces my cool down.

In regard to EZ's request that ranged dps stay on that final Astral Flare, I totally agree. I focus on the Astral Flares, until they are all down, and occasionally take pot shots at Curator in between Flares.

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Re: 6/28-6/29 WWS

Post by Dendroydia on Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:30 pm

Confused about the comment by Ianil re: Healbot working better for the group u r in. Healbot shows everyone in the raid and there are different skins to use for different events (i.e. there is a configuration best for raids, battlegrounds, etc.) Ianil, let me or Graz know if u have questions re: the configuration of healbot. IT IS THE MOST USEFUL TOOL FOR HEALERS Smile Just like macros make certain things easier, healbot is the bomb for good healers....look at Graz Smile
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Re: 6/28-6/29 WWS

Post by Ianil on Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:30 pm

When Healbot pops up for me, it showed the group I was in - group 2 - listed before group 1. So when I switched off of kills and started going down the list, group 1 would usually be cured by the time I got to it.

I changed it a bit for this last week, I actually stopped casting before the curse went off and was able to get more people decursed. The only problem there was that I went and got myself killed. Wink Oops.

And, yes, I agree with Dendroidia. Healbot is fantastically useful! It saved our butts last night running heroics for sure.
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Re: 6/28-6/29 WWS

Post by Relina on Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:12 pm

I still refuse to give in to Healbot. I am not a robot! XP
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Re: 6/28-6/29 WWS

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